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Vasco Grilo's avatar

Thanks for the post, Andy! I think increasing the consumption of animal-based food is beneficial. It decreases the number of soil nematodes, mites, and springtails via increasing cropland, which is among the biomes with the lowest density of those animals, and my best guess is that they have negative lives (with probability 58.7 %, 55.8 %, and 55.0 %; I am very uncertain). I estimate School Plates in 2023, and Veganuary in 2024 harmed those animals 5.75 k and 3.85 k times as much as they benefited farmed animals (https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/Rjutj7Jd2v2KHvDyA/cost-effectiveness-accounting-for-soil-nematodes-mites-and).

"The first reason is that if we are mainly worried about terrestrial vertebrate animals, nature basically does not exist compared to animal agriculture"

Biomass is not the best proxy for the absolute value of welfare. Based on the relationship between Rethink Priorities' mainline welfare ranges, and neuron counts, I calculated soil nematodes, mites, and springtails have (in expectation) a welfare of -4.36*10^-6, -1.57*10^-5, and -2.35*10^-5 QALY/animal-year (https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/Rjutj7Jd2v2KHvDyA/cost-effectiveness-accounting-for-soil-nematodes-mites-and). I also estimated they have an annual welfare of -296 k, -13.9 k, and -10.4 k times that of humans.

"The second reason is that no matter how much suffering already exists in the world, more suffering is still bad."

I very much agree. However, I think more factory-farming decreases global suffering due to decreasing the suffering of wild animals much more than it increases the suffering of farmed animals.

"The third reason is that the suffering of wild animals can still be very bad even though we have much less control over it."

I agree, but I would say we have control over it to a significant extent. I believe it is currently very difficult to change the welfare per wild-animal-year, but wild animal welfare can also be improved by decreasing negative wild-animal-years. For my best guess that wild animals have negative lives, I think this can be achieved by increasing cropland, such as by extending human lives, and therefore increasing food consumption (https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/Rjutj7Jd2v2KHvDyA/cost-effectiveness-accounting-for-soil-nematodes-mites-and).

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enchantingacacia's avatar

I think about ethically raised animal products a little bit differently.

Firstly and perhaps most importantly, I would inform someone intending to purchase ethically raised animal products that the animal agriculture industry spends an enormous amount of effort and money hiding the cruelty of animal farming from the public. Many "humane certifications" are essentially industry-run scams intended to deceive customers into thinking their animals are treated less cruelly than they are. Even the ones that aren't are often at shockingly bare-minimum levels that in no way ensure that the animals have lives worth living, merely that they were spared from the absolute most barbaric practices. I only consider animal products "ethically raised" if I or someone I trust has literally physically met the animals in question and observed their living conditions.

On the other hand, I think that (at least with those strict standards of "ethically raised"), eating only animal products from ethically raised animals certainly causes enough "social friction" to be easily distinguishable from omnivorism. It means you won't be eating animal products most of the time, since it's probably expensive and/or inconvenient.

Thirdly, I do try to keep in mind the fact that there are some people for whom veganism is highly impractical, or even outright impossible (for various medical reasons). And in an ideal world I think we would be reserving the world's limited supply of ethically raised animal products for those people. (I'm admittedly unsure how this should affect my actions today, though.)

On another note, I think what you wrote about animals getting their B12 exclusively from dirt and artificial supplementation is true for non-ruminants such as chickens and pigs, but not for cows. I only did a little googling on this, but it looks like cows are typically provided feed enriched with cobalt, which they use to synthesize B12 in the rumen (the first stomach).

Thanks for a great article!

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