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Matt Beard's avatar

I think the “animal response = toy robot” people would feel horrific if made to torture a pig, or even to see one tortured in front of them. In my view the problem is how isolated anyone is from ever having to see these things, not that we have some inbuilt intuition that animals don’t suffer.

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Matt Ball's avatar

Thanks for this.

I think extreme suffering matters the most; it has become the core of my philosophy in the past few years. (See the philosophy chapters https://www.losingmyreligions.net/ for details)

Several points to maybe consider:

1. I'm closing in on 40 years as a vegetarian, and over three decades as an advocate. I've talked with more people than I can even guess at. I can honestly say I've never thought, "This person thinks animal suffering is pretend."

2. In your cladistic graph, it seems unreasonable to me to think that everything to the right of some point can experience human-level suffering, and everything to the left doesn't suffer. There has to be some gradation in the amount of suffering possible as the complexity of the nervous system increases. This isn't to denigrate the suffering of non-humans; we focus on chickens (One Step for Animals). But I wouldn't say the worst *possible* suffering of a chicken is equal to the worst *possible* suffering of a human.

3. Convincing people to change their habits is very hard, to the point where, to a first approximation, it is impossible. Worse, attempts are fraught with unintended consequences that actually leads to more suffering (https://www.onestepforanimals.org/about.html).

4. “It would be good to not have an unimaginably vast underclass of conscious beings like ourselves who we regularly subject to nightmarish suffering with basically no positive experiences to make up for it only because they have unsympathetic outer appearances and can’t reason and think well enough to convince us to stop.” I think this is a true statement, but in my experience, statements like this have, at best, zero impact on anyone who isn't already vegan. As I've gotten older, I realize we should focus not on being right, but first causing no harm. https://mattball.substack.com/p/being-smart-hurts

Take care and be well.

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